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  • I'm not sure, again, if this is from an influencer working with an influencer, us working with the influencer. I'll be a little more brief this time when I explain it. One, for us, we are not looking at engagement as much anymore because we're looking at reach and impressions numbers. If we saw that the engagement was low but the reach and impressions were where they needed to be, we would still work with that influencer.

    If those numbers were giving us signals that that person was buying followers, we probably wouldn't work with them. In so far as doing an influencer collaboration or working with someone who you feel has bought followers or their engagement is all wonky, that's a personal decision.

    If we're talking influencer to influencer, and you're asking, "Should I collaborate with this person? Should I hang out with them? Should I promote whatever?" In general, my advice would be there was way too many people worrying about what other influencers are doing. There continues to be this narrative that everyone else is cheating and I'm not, and there are unfair things happening in the world. There are unfair things happening in the influencer space. There's loop giveaways. There's people buying followers. There's people buying likes, yes. All of those things are real. None of those things are going to give you long term prolonged success. If you start looking at this as decades, years or decades, instead of months, you start looking at where do I want to be in five years instead of where do I want to be five days from now or five hours from now. That stuff matters a lot less.

    Generally, the people who cheat or hack their way into success don't find long term sustainable success. In the end, those things sort themselves out. I just think there's way too much energy wasted in the space complaining and worrying about what other people are doing. Does it take away money away from you in the short term? Absolutely. I 100% get that, and I get that as unfair. Again, we talk about a lot of times people taking drugs in sports. You are stealing things from other influencers. They're stealing jobs from you, they're stealing money from you, they're defrauding brands. That is super frustrating, but there's enough opportunities to go around, and again, in the end, these things will figure themselves out.

    Instagram has huge teams that are everyday getting rid of bots that are working on fake engagement problems. It is in their best interest to make sure you can't hack your way into success and to make sure that the platform is built on real numbers and authentic engagement. Those things will not be a problem forever. Just worry about you. I swear, it gets better.
    Episode #125
    - Influencer Selection, Engagement vs. Likes, Outgrowing Brands
  • I was thinking about this one before I came in here, and asking, do you need to love a brand to promote it? I don’t think so. I think that you need to believe the value proposition of that brand. You need to believe that what you’re saying is good about the brand is true. It doesn’t necessarily mean you need to love it or be a customer of it.

    I love expensive glassware. I’m a zeldo man for through and through. That’s a $70 wineglass. There’s an $8 wineglass that when people ask what glasses they should get, I tell them those. I don’t have them. I don’t love that brand. I’m not a customer of that brand, but I know they make high quality good-looking glassware at a low price. It doesn’t break that easily. For a lot of people, that’s perfect. While I don’t love the brand, I do believe in the value proposition of it. I think that the idea that you have to be this authentic, huge fandom of brand to support them is unrealistic.

    Now, influencers working with brands that they don’t believe in the value proposition and they don’t like the brand, is ridiculous and is always a recipe for an inauthentic, terrible host. Why do brands do that? A lot of them aren’t that good at this. They should be working with us, first of all. Also, it’s hard. It’s easy to find people that love you if you’re Chanel, it’s harder if you’re tied or degraded.

    There are certain brands that make it easy to love them. That’s how the whole business model is set up. We call it emotional loyalty. [clears throat] Excuse me. We call it emotional loyalty, where you are irrationally loyal to a brand. It is because for some reason, you feel real, genuine affection and love towards that brand and what they stand for. It is incredibly rare in the marketing world. I’d say maybe 5% of the brands that you engage with, you legitimately love. If a prerequisite for advertising for a brand is loving it, there would be only ads from Nike, Chanel, Dior and Gucci or something. That's ridiculous.

    For some brands it's hard. They have to work with influencers that don't love the brand. Ideally, those people understand the value and appreciate and believe the value proposition.

    Good thing to ask yourself when you have somebody reach out to your brand that you're maybe not a customer of or you haven't thought about, look at the value proposition. Ask yourself if you believe it, ask yourself if you feel comfortable with your followers spending their money on that product. If you feel comfortable and good about that, then I'd say you're fine to go through with collaboration.
    Episode #125
    - Influencer Selection, Engagement vs. Likes, Outgrowing Brands
  • How often should you be posting about things that you're interested in that are outside of your initial focus that you started the account for? We've talked about this a few times, I think. You are a dynamic, interesting, hopefully, multifaceted person. I think that if you're interested in something, you should talk about it. I think you shouldn't expect your audience to initially and immediately be interested in it as well.

    I think you have to give them a reason to listen to you. If I think that you're great at beauty tips and I love what you're able to do with makeup and I love the way you do your makeup and I follow you for that reason, I don't instantly want to follow, I don't instantly want to cook the things that you're cooking. That's not why I've followed you so I don't care, but you made me care about beauty so presumably, you can make me care about cooking as well. You can make me care about your workout plans. You can make me care about your children.

    You can get there but it is not a given. You don't just have the same authority in those other verticals that you have and the vertical you've been working in for years and years. You have to roll it out slow, you have to be consistent. I think you have to do more explaining. I would use longer captions to try and set some authority and let people know you actually know what you're talking about.

    What I hate is when influencers feel like, "I'm a fashion influencer but there's a lot of money in beauty so now, boom, I'm a fucking beauty influencer." It's like, well, no, you're not. You're a fashion influencer who is trying to make money hawking beauty products. There is a pretty big difference there. If you're going to go into another vertical, I would, one, not do any sponsored posts for at least six months, two, make sure you know what the fuck you're talking about. That's really the only two things I would focus on. Spend six months trying to build trust with your audience and actually get them to believe that you know what the fuck you're talking about and thus, they should listen to you.

    Once you get there, go make your money once you have their trust. Go work with brands but it's not going to work if you just jump into another vertical to make money or because your growth has stalled somewhere else. You have to build that expertise. You cannot influence someone if you don't know more about that thing than they do. That's the kind of long and short of this whole world. You are not going to be able to influence someone if they don't think you know more than them. Why the hell would they listen to you otherwise?
    Episode #123
    - New Influencers, Improving Reach, Introducing New Niches
  • We don't do anything to-- Let me step back.

    One, if you've applied, thank you, if you've gotten your verification, congratulations. If you haven't, don't despair, there is a way to fix it. In some ways, it is easier to fix than the way we used to do verifications where you would actually have to go and purge your bot or inauthentic followers to be able to get that verification. We don't do anything to-- Let me step back. One, if you've applied thank you, if you've gotten your verification congratulations if you haven't don't despair there is a way to fix it. In a lot of some ways that is easier to fix than the way, we used to do verifications where you would actually have to go and purge your bot or inauthentic followers to be able to get that verification.

    A lot of what the Verified Reach is built off of is the reach, impressions, saves, engagement numbers from your business Instagram account. You want to focus on reaching more of your audience. The the easiest way to get verified is to increase the amount of your audience that you're reaching. You may throw your hands up and say, "Well, I can't do anything about that. The algorithm hates me."

    We've said before, the algorithm is not predatory. It doesn't just pick people, it doesn't like and make sure that nobody sees their content. It doesn't hold grudges. It is an algorithm, it's an equation. I think it's a pretty fair equation. Content that does better in the first few minutes of posting gets served to more people, gets more engagement. It is a very simple cycle. I was just in Prague last week. Most of my posts got, I think, like, 500 likes. One of them got 1,000. That one that got 1,000 got double the reach.

    Now, if I actually cared about this and I was like, "Okay, I want to figure out how I can create content like that that's going to drive that kind of reaction every time," I would probably grow a lot faster. There is a way to fix that. If you didn't get verified, you can take a couple of months and you can come back and reapply. Just drop us an email to Support and we can clear your account and let you try again. Focus on those reach numbers, focus on trying to get your content in front of more people.

    In general, the amount of followers you have is going to become decreasingly important over the coming year and years, especially in so far as your relationship with Fohr is concerned. We are essentially deprecating follower account as the number that we're using to figure out what we're going to pay people and what we're reporting on the success or failure of our campaigns so we're using reach, impressions and saves and things like that to come to those numbers.

    I would encourage you to stop obsessing about your followers and start obsessing about how many of them you're actually reaching because that's going to be the metric increasingly that matters and if you're reaching a large percentage of your audience, Instagram is going to serve that content to discovering more. You're going to get more followers. It's all a cycle if you just focus on that number instead of the follower count. The follower count will come so you don't have do loop giveaways, you don't have to do all these bullshit. That doesn't actually drive real authentic growth. Focus on your reach numbers, the rest will come.
    Episode #123
    - New Influencers, Improving Reach, Introducing New Niches
  • We get this question a lot. Can a new influencer make it? Is it too late if I'm starting out today? I've used the Rolling Stones as an example before but let's use the Rolling Stones as an example again. Rolling Stones, The Beatles rose to fame at the same time. They had different kinds of music but they were incredibly dominant in the music scene for a long time.

    Did anyone raise their hands, throw them up in the air and say, "Well, that's it. No new music. We'll never have another popular band again. The Rolling Stones and The Beatles exist so we might as well just hang our fucking hat up and never create any new music ever again." No. Of course, nobody said that because that would be a fucking ridiculous thing to say and it's ridiculous to believe that new influencers cannot get popular, cannot rise to prominence today. Do other people have a head start? Yes. Are they vulnerable? Absolutely.

    The world changes and it's hard to see those changes from the top of an industry. I think that in a lot of ways, the only way to see where things are going a lot of times is being on the ground level and scraping around in the mud and trying to figure out and make it work. There will be new influencers, there will be influencers who dethrone as it were those influencers who are at the top right now.

    A lot of those people probably haven't even started an Instagram account yet so it could be you but probably time to get to work and stop complaining and thinking that there are no new influencers and I can't make it because you can. Look, I talk about Tess all the time. Well, no, I think Tess is a good example of just-- A couple of years ago, she's like a micro influencer or a photographer. Growth has been crazy. I just think that there is always a chance to find your way to the top. What other influencers have grown recently?

    Another good example is our friend Double3xposure down in Atlanta. I think she grew a bunch probably back a year ago but she's on all the campaigns with the big influencers who've been around for five or six years. She came out of fucking nowhere, was doing something a little bit different and has captured some attention and has been able to put herself on that level with everyone else.

    Right now, she's on a trip with Proenza for their Arizona fragrance, I just noticed, and she's there with all the all the big influencers. A year ago, a year-and-a-half ago, no one really heard of her. I think that there are stories out there of people who had been able to catapult themselves into that upper echelon pretty quickly so next one could be you.
    Episode #123
    - New Influencers, Improving Reach, Introducing New Niches
  • I sometimes, I hate trolls. I hate people that just spew vitriol on the Internet but I do read GOMI sometimes. For those of you don't know what that is, Get Off My Internets. They have a forum where a lot of top influencers have pages and they are vile. I think that GOMI should be wiped off the face of the earth but what is interesting, and some of it is going through and seeing what people are frustrated by. I think we talked about trolls and we talked about people giving negative feedback and your reaction to that, and a lot of you responded to me on that.

    I got a bunch of emails about it. This is in some ways a difficult question for me to answer because my life hasn't separated from reality or the peoples that I'm around, in a significant way. I feel blessed to live the life I do but I've lived in the same apartment, shitty apartment for 10 years. I don't make a huge amount of money. I don't make fuck off money I can do whatever I want. My life stays more relatively grounded because it just hasn't changed that much, so I can't speak to being like, “Oh, a lot of top influencers are making half a million, million dollars a year. What does that do to you?” I have no idea.

    I don't make anywhere in the stratosphere of that much money. I don't know but I try and surround myself with people who argue with me, who tell me I'm wrong. I try and listen to that. We had the whole-- We had the conversation with Val on A Drink with James, a month or so ago that came out of her. That relationship and friendship I have with her came out of her calling me out on the Internet for something I said, and for me actually listening to it. I think that you need to continue to listen to your audience.

    Again, I think if you look at like Chrissy Teigen, she has more money than most people will ever get in their entire life. She still feels grounded. She feels like a normal person. Why is that? She's self-deprecating. She doesn't take herself too seriously. She doesn't think her shit doesn't stink. She doesn't think she's God's gift to the world. I think gratitude goes a long way and being humble and saying, a lot of this life is probably due to luck, which I think for most people, the lives they have are as influenced by privilege and luck as anything else. It's a bit of a stretch to say that it was all hustle and it was all you.

    Where am I going with this? How do you stay grounded? I don't know. Don't be an asshole. Try and surround yourself with people who keep you grounded. Listen to your audience. Listen to try and continue to understand them. Ask them questions. More and more influencers are asking their audience, “What do you want to see? What do you want to see more of? What do you want to see less of?” I think that's always good. I think if you are fortunate enough to be incredibly wealthy and very successful, you also have to probably stop showing a lot of that. Think of the celebrities. Do they show their houses ever? Not really. Do they show their vacations? Not really. There comes a point where you reach a level of success where I think it is tacky to show it.

    It’s like, one of the reasons we work with NetJets on the campaigns is that NetJets gets no content from their owners because their owners don't share that they fly private because it's just a little braggy and tacky. Again, if you're in that world where you have exited into the 1%, I think you should probably start scaling back what you show because I just don't think it's helpful. Again, look at a Chrissy Teigen, look at Jennifer Lawrence. Are they posting about their house?

    Are they posting about the $30,000 couch they bought? Probably not because they don't need to throw it in your face. You know they're rich. They know they're rich. What else do you have to prove? I don't know but listen, if I ever achieve generational wealth, I will answer this question again and tell you how to stay grounded because I'm certainly not there yet.
    Episode #122
    - Improving Engagement, Future of Influencers, Staying Grounded
  • I was just on the panel this week. Something like this came up. One of the panelists was saying how they're a content creator and they're passionate about what they do. They were going on and on about this, which is all true. It came to me, and I don't remember exactly what the question was, but I jumped in and I was like, "The second you take money, you're an advertiser. You're not a content creator anymore. Your job is to fucking sell product, move product." I think that shift is going to be a big part of the shift in the influencer space in the coming year.

    There's going to be billions of dollars spent next year in influencer marketing. The stakes get a lot higher. This staff needs to work better. Part of the reason I don't think it works well is I think a lot of brands how to do it effectively. I think a lot of the influencers aren't doing a great job driving value. I think a lot of influencer pricing is inflated. I think there's going to be a big shift away from follower counts to reach impressions numbers. That's something we are already doing with verified reach and other things. That's going to be a fairly seismic change in the industry.

    I think those influencers that can actually drive real quantifiable value and action for a brand are going to be the ones that continue to stand out. Continue to be a separation between audience and influence. I think something we're seeing is that a lot of people have built followings off of like a cult of personality, that they're just big personalities.

    Some people are really good at changing, taking a really interesting personality or life and being able to drive action from that. I'd say, look at Chrissy Teigen. She's just a huge personality and people love her so much that they will listen to her, and they'll buy the things that she buys, and she is very influential. A lot of people don't have that ability to bridge the gap between personality and purchase but that gap is really important. I think that influencers have to get better.

    You have to understand the value that you're driving for brands more effectively. You have to understand that this is business. This isn't a game. This isn't just, just because you have a following, doesn't mean you deserve to be paid. You need to actually drive value. When we take brands’ money, there's expectations. If we don't meet those expectations, well, that never happens. We always exceed the expectations but in a world where we didn't meet a brand's expectations, that's a breach of contract. We don't get our money.

    There needs to be more accountability in the influencer space and there's only so much pressure we can put in from the outside, from brands, agencies, platforms, things like that.

    We’ll continue to put pressure on the influencer space to get better to evolve, to grow, to improve but that pressure also has to come from the inside, and influencers have to take up-- They have to take up some of the slack and say that we need to do better.

    It is a very competitive world out there for advertising dollars, and if there is a recession, God forbid, this world is going to be a lot different because if we can't prove it works and there's a recession, everyone's fucked because the first thing they're going to cut is the budget that they can't prove is effective and that is going to be influencers probably. Everyone needs to buck up and do a better job driving value or we're all going to be at a very difficult place if the economy ever dips. Please don't make me give up. My Tom Brown and Drake's, don't make me give up being able to go on vacations because the industry falls away from us because we couldn't prove that it was effective. We all need to push a little harder.
    Episode #122
    - Improving Engagement, Future of Influencers, Staying Grounded
  • I don't remember who I spoke to. There's some influencer who I talked to recently who's saying that this year they went back to engaging with their audience instead of going on and doing a bunch of random engagement with people. That's been really helpful.

    We talked follower retention a good amount. It is probably one of the most ignored numbers in the space. How do you keep the followers you already have. A good way to do that is by engaging with them. Answering your DMs, answering your comments, going into your followers accounts, liking, engaging. Things like that.. How much time? I don't know. I think there's very successful influencers out there that spend no time, and there's people that are very disciplined about it. Like everything we talked about on the show, my advice to you would be to track it and test it.

    You can build experiments for all of this stuff. You can say, "I'm going to engage one hour a day everyday for the next seven days. I'm going to write down at the end of the day how many followers I gained, how many I lost, et cetera. My engagement rates. Then the next week I'm going to do two hours and the week after that I'm going to do three hours." Then you're going to have three sets of data. You can look at growth rates. You can look at engagement rates and you can say, "Is it worth me spending three hours a day to get an extra hundred followers a week? I get 50 new followers a week when I do an hour, and a hundred when I do three hours."

    That's a choice you can actually make instead of saying, "I don't know what to do." You might find that engaging for three hours doesn't get you anything. You might find it gets you four times as many followers. You have to test, experiment, track it, built very simple spreadsheets, be disciplined. You only have to be disciplined in that way for a few weeks as you're running your experiments. Then you have to go back and test those experiments every six months or so and see if it's still working.

    The platform changes constantly, so the things you did six months ago likely don't work today. Test, track. There's this piece of advice in the business world that's generally like, "We improve what we track." It's something like that. If you are tracking things and if you are taking down data and running experiments, you will get better in those places. If you don't track it, it gives you a way to ignore it and just say, "Oh, this isn't happening." Avoid the problem. Track it, test it. Let me know how it goes. I think you could test it for a week.

    I think that would give you good enough data. The nice thing about Instagram is because the scale is so big now, the volume's so high. A week will give you a pretty good idea. Now, what you want to do with that as well is you want to build a model that allows you to extrapolate the results out over a year. When you build your model, if you say, "Okay. Right now I engage zero hours a day. I am going to engage one hour a day." Let's say your growth rate today is 1%. When you engage and hour a day for a week, your growth rate went to 1.3%, 1.4%.

    What is interesting there is when you extrapolate that out over the course of an entire year. Like compound interest in the financial world, little changes, especially if you're following this over 50,000 or 100,000, little changes in percentages have huge impacts over the course of the year. You want to make sure you build something that can extrapolate that and lets you see where am I going to be in a year so you can make those decisions.
    Episode #122
    - Improving Engagement, Future of Influencers, Staying Grounded
  • I can be cynical. A lot of times, it feels lazy in that it feels transactional. It's like an influencer designed this capsule collection with a jewellery designer, it's just an-- To me it feels like, "Oh, this is another way to get--" Look, it makes sense for the brand. They're leaning on this influencer's brand equity. They're also stroking your ego and saying, "Hey, do you want to design this thing with us?"

    That said, like Blair Eadie's line, it's great and it's very deep. There's a lot of product in there. That looked great, obviously. Something Navy's Nordstrom line did. It did incredibly well and she had four million dollars in the first day of sales, which is bonkers and completely unheard of. It can make sense. It's another way to make money, which is awesome, but as an influencer, I would be patient. If you want to design product, first understand what kind of product do you want to design, and then think about the best way to do that. Just because some random company, sock company, comes up to you and says, "Do you want to do a collab on socks?" It doesn't mean you have to do it.

    Every new physical product you launch dilutes your brand a little bit more. You only get so many times where you can tell people, "I'm doing this collaboration with this brand. I'm doing a collaboration with this brand, this brand." If you want to design physical product, if that is something that you want to cash your influence in and do, I would be very considered and slow about how I did it, who I did that with, and what my end call is.

    Look, if your goal is just to make some money, I guess you can do something pretty simple, go show that product, make the money, walk away. If you want to build a line, if you want to be a fashion designer and that's the path you want to take out of being an influencer and moving into design, I don't think doing cheap not-super-well-thought-out collaborations is a good way to get there. Step back, take your time, and make sure when you do it, you actually do it right.

    Make sure you want to be involved in the process. Who do I see doing a good job with this? I wrote something to BrandZ recently about The Rock. He did this line with Under Armour. What I liked is when it launched they went back and showed all these stories of them working together on this thing. When they laid out everything that they were doing,-- If you're going to launch a product, make sure that you're super involved and make sure that you document it. Even if you can't publish in real time, document it in a way that you can show your followers that you actually really cared about it.

    When I see a lot of these things, I think they had to know they really didn't have a lot of say in this. That the brand sent them some designs, they okayed them and said, "Tweak this, tweak that," and it was done. I as a consumer, I would want to see you in there. I would want to see you working on it. I would want to see the journey of how you got there. That can add some authenticity and make it feel really real and make it feel like you're super passionate about it.

    That's the other thing, it's like selling products that is really hard, you have to be really, really, really passionate about it. This product has to be bigger than you like Fohr is a bigger deal than I am. I'm in service of this company in a lot of ways, and I would do whatever it takes to add to the success of Fohr and what is happening here. Anything that you do, it needs to feel like that. It needs to feel like so much bigger and more important than a sponsored post. You have to talk about it all the time, it has to become a huge part of your life. If all those things are true, go for it. Send me a link, maybe I'll buy it.
    Episode #121
    - Campaign Selections, Insights Reporting, Influencer Products
  • One, in business, I generally find that honesty is never really a bad thing. I think if you said, "Hey--" Let me step back. One, I question slightly the premise. While I do think that you are getting reach and impressions and saves and interactions on posts for days, I'd say 90% of the value and the eyeballs that are going to see your post see it in the first day.

    If it were me, I would send it to them because they're looking to see it, and I would say, "Hey, so you know, my feed, I generally continue to get a good amount of views and impressions and things like that for days after, so I'm going to send you another one of these in a couple days. If you're doing any final reporting to the client, it would be awesome if you could wait a few days just so I can get all the impressions and everything into that report." That's good for the client, that's good for you. You want the highest numbers that you can possibly get.

    I would just be honest there and say it generally it takes a couple of days. I don't think you need to say like, "Because I have an authentic following," or "because it's organic, it's taking longer." You just say, "From my account, I generally am getting impressions and views for three days. Here's where we're at now. I'm going to send you something else in two days. If you could hold off, that would be awesome, if not, I totally understand." If they're pushing you really hard, it's probably because they're being pushed really hard by someone else.

    If you're a campaign of 30 people and everyone else sent their insights in after 24 hours with no note about needing a couple of days and you're the only one who didn't, it's not that it can look fishy, but I think you would maybe be a little eye-rolley. Maybe like, "Come on. Just send me the fucking insights." Be honest, tell them they'll have it in a couple days and try and train them so that the next time you work with them they know that it's going to be three days and not one.

    We talked about this a couple of shows ago, I don't know, but about performance recaps. You should absolutely be sending it. You should definitely be sending screenshots of your insights. Go back a few episodes, I lay out exactly what you should be doing in those performance reviews. I've gotten a few from influencers that look great. I'm happy to critique them if you send it my way. I'll eye it over and send some feedback if you want to email it to me, but that should be standard, you should be doing that for everyone.

    Let's say you usually get 10,000 impressions on your photos and this time you got 5,000. I always try and get in front of what went wrong. Again, go back to honesty. I would send it to them and I would say, "Hey, full transparency, this post did not perform as well as I would have liked. I usually get twice as many impressions as this. I'd love to make it up to you with another post in the next couple of days. When are you pulling this report together? Because I would like to get another post in there so that I can give you guys what I would be more comfortable with saying was my best work."

    I joke about it here in the office. I always say it like, let's 8-mile them. You know at the end of 8 Mile when Eminem, he's in the rap battle and he says every single insult that the guy's going to say to him and shuts it down, I always tell the team, "Do the same thing." Take the thing they're going to say, say it first, and provide a solution, so, "Hey, my impressions were much lower than they usually are. That doesn't make me happy, so here's two options, I can give you one static post or three more stories and that should get us to where I would feel more comfortable with." Always good to get in front of that stuff.

    Look, even though you're like, "I'm doing a free post," or "I'm doing this extra stuff," I cannot stress enough how far that would go with a client. If you came out and said, "Hey, this didn't do as well as I like, I'd like to make it up to you," they could just be like, "You're fine. Thank you so much." If they say, "Oh, my gosh, that would be amazing," you're making yourself look amazing and you're making them look really good because they get to go to their boss and say, "Oh, and we got some bonus posts out of this person." They're probably not going to say you got bonus posts because you didn't perform well, it's just going to look like bonus posts.
    Episode #121
    - Campaign Selections, Insights Reporting, Influencer Products
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