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  • I think it's important to think about influencers as a new way to execute advertising right? If influencers are just in the marketing channel, a new and exciting marketing channel but a marketing channel. Then think about what industries marketing is relevant for, and that is essentially every industry.

    Now, it's also a new channel, so it's not fully matured. There're definitely are pockets where it is harder to find influencers who are focused on those things. Like for a-- let's think about a company that's very much B2B on an enterprise level and is making wind turbines. Probably not a huge place for influencers there all right? It's probably your audience that you're trying to market to or sell to it's probably not on Instagram.

    What are people going to say about enormous wind turbines on Instagram, but I think companies that get really big where people don't know what they do start to think about advertising as more of a PR thing. They just want to get their name known a little bit and so there are ways for companies that don't necessarily traditionally make sense to get the word out. That might be around some things they're doing with the charity. Maybe they have some kind of fun project that they're working on. Maybe it's a big Gala event that they do and they invite influencers too.

    As a brand, there's not a lot of brands out there that don't want more people knowing what they are. I think that we will see as time progresses and as the space becomes more important and influential. Businesses using influencers-- businesses that understand that there is no consumer side to their business will use influencers to maybe shed light on the corporate good work that they're doing, or some of the other things that they're doing to get some goodwill in the space.

    Get some name recognition out there. To maybe counteract the fact that they're dumping millions of tons of toxic chemicals into rivers every day. That's traditionally how those brands have used advertising. It's to try and-- maybe because they're not in the public's sphere, they want to own that narrative and be able to say, "If anyone knows anything about us, we want it to be this thing that we do.

    Again, this really great charity work we do for corporate good we're doing or some new initiative, or some new little project we're working on, or we did a code brand thing with this other brand that is more consumer-facing" so I think the way you-- to get back to the actual question. I'm going off on tangents a lot today. How do you find out if they're influential in your industry? Well, I think that the easiest way is to probably- if you're not a first mover is to probably see if you're competitors start using them.

    I would say that almost every industry there is something that you're business or brand could do with an influencer to help move the needle on your business and do some good for you. I think it would be a very rare business and I'm sure if I thought about it we could come up with examples but it'll be very rare where it would 100% absolutely never makes sense.

    It depends largely on the messaging and again for those alternative industries, are the ones that are more B2B. I think it's going to be more about very much not product-based but company focused.
    Episode #156
    - Influencer engagement rate, differences, relevance in your industry
  • When I think about the space and I think about, "Let's again, look at someone with 100,000 followers." I think a lot of the industry sees someone with 100,000 followers and says, "That's an influencer." I think that's where a lot of the problems in understanding the space and being effective in the space come from.

    That having 100,000 followers does not mean you are an influencer, it means you have 100,000 followers. The way we think about it is an influencer is somebody who has influence over people. It's somebody that their audience listens to them in some way. Generally, the way we think about it is that there are some expert on a certain-- There's some topic expert, beauty, fashion, travel, cars, gaming, whatever it might be, or it can be lifestyle. They just have a certain lifestyle that they have been able to craft that's really appealing.

    Influencers to us, are people that are talking about brands a lot. They are influencing people's decision making. They are, "I'm following you because I trust your opinion on something and I want to see what you're talking about." Or it can be a lifestyle thing of like, "You have great taste in restaurants and you go out a lot, so I want to follow you because I want to see where you're eating," or, "You always go on amazing vacations and I want to see where you're traveling."

    In our mind, that is an influencer. Then we have people who have an audience and that is just, you have an audience, you have people that are following you. Maybe you're genetically gifted and you're incredibly good-looking. Like it or not, sometimes it's just nice to see really good-looking people pop into your feet every once in a while.

    You have a following but in our mind, you don't have as much of an ability to influence that following because the thing they are interested in is not your point of view in the world, not the restaurants you're going to or the brands that you're going that you work with or the new Beauty hack you came up with or what foundation you're using. They're interested in looking at you, or just in you specifically and not so much in the way you see the world.

    Content creator sits out on the side. It's different than having an audience because it's not a 'you focused feed'. Most content creators are very much behind the lens or they're artists or whatever it might be. The feed is not focused on them necessarily or at all, but rather in the way they see or interpret the world and that is interesting.

    I think that content creators certainly can be influencers. We had Joe Greer speak at our conference. He is a photographer and artist and a content creator. He's not an influencer in my mind but I bought my camera because of him. I bought my film, Leica, from following his account. He, for me, is very influential when he's talking about cameras. He influences the way I shoot, he influences maybe the places I want to go to shoot. I would not call him an influencer.

    To answer the question, I think there is a huge difference between having an audience, being an influencer and being a content creator. I do not think brands generally see the difference but the brands that are good at this and are getting more strategic, are understanding, "When do I need to use a content creator who can create beautiful things for me? When do I need to use an influencer who can tell a really compelling brand story for me? Or, "When do I need to use someone for audience and just get my name in front of people and get a bunch of scale?"

    Again, the lines can blur. There are big celebrities who have a huge influence. Look at the Kardashians. We wouldn't call them influencers, but obviously they're incredibly influential. There are content creators that are influencers. There are influencers who create beautiful content like [unintelligible 00:18:05]. The lines do blur but we definitely see there being lines. I think it's important to understand where you stand because I think it is not currently affecting the price of what you pay for a post that much, I think in the future it will.

    In our opinion, somebody who has an audience versus someone who has influence, you should pay a lot more for the person who has influence over the person who has an audience. That's not the case yet in the industry, we are pushing to make it so. I think that's definitely something that is going to happen, is we're going to start to delineate those two things and say, "Wait, hold on. Just because you have 150,000 followers doesn't mean they give a shit about what your skin care routine is. Why would I pay you the same as a beauty skincare influencer who they're 150,000 followers absolutely care about their skin care routine? They care passionately about that influencer skin care routine."

    That doesn't make sense. I think that will start to change. On the content creator side, I think it's an interesting, what do I want to say? On the content creator side, it blurs two models. If you have 10,000 followers, well, let's look at my friend Aaron. He's only got 2,000 followers. He's a great photographer, he makes his career as a filmmaker and a photographer. He's obviously not being paid for his posts the. He only has 2,000 followers. He's charging day rates. The brand's like when he posts and if had 50,000 followers, he definitely wouldn't be paid again. He wouldn't be paid off of those followers. He's getting paid a day rate. I think most content creators until you get a huge following, it makes a lot more sense to be charging for a day rate and having your following be a kicker. Probably until you get over 300,000 followers, it's when I could start to see the posts on your feed starting to compete with your day rate as far as the amount of money you can make.

    This is predicated on you actually having some talent I might say. A normal up and coming photographer in fashion I think you're looking at 750 to 1500 for day rate. It's pretty fair I think. That's not for editorial. Editorial is $0. There's no money in editorial obviously. As you get better day rates get to $2, or $3 or $5000 a day. Again, it would get hard to make that much money off your Instagram account.

    I think for content creators probably still makes sense to focus on making your money in the more traditional way with day rate, but thinking about your following as a marketing funnel for bringing in new clients. I definitely would post your clients even if they're not paying for it. It's going to make them super happy and it's definitely going to bring in new business and treat that Instagram as your marketing funnel.
    Episode #156
    - Influencer engagement rate, differences, relevance in your industry
  • One, it may not be a big problem in the near future because they are going to start hiding light, so you do whatever the fuck you want. We just live free, baby. Two, let's make sure you don't great engagement. Let's put up the average engagement by tier for the platform.

    These averages are across our 80, 000 influencers. This is where you should be. If you are below that, yes, you do have low engagement. I'm sorry. How should you handle it? One, If it were me, let's say I had 100, 000 followers and at my level, the average engagement was 2% and I had 1%, that's dramatic. That's 100% lower. That's not a small amount. Again, we talked about this in the episode with Patrick and he said he doesn't do this. Patrick, I love you but I think I would if it were me. I would get ahead of it.

    Okay, let me step back. I guess there's two things. If the brand comes to you and they want to work with you, then don't say a thing. I think when I was talking to Patrick and he said that he doesn't bring it out, it's because he is getting reached out to. If someone reaches out to you, you don't have to be, "Super excited to work with you. I do want you to know I have bad engagement." That is not really helpful.

    If you feel like you don't have great engagement and you are not getting brand deals because of that, I think you need to, when you reach out to brands, you need to bring up the engagement right away. I think you need to say, "You are going to look at my account, you are going to see this engagement number, let me explain why that is the way it is." Whatever you do, don't say, "Oh, my God. My engagement was 50% better last week but the algorithm is just fucking killing me," and like, "It's not my fault. I don't know what's going on."

    How many people will just tell me all the time when I defend the algorithm, that in the last month, Instagram has cut their engagement into half? Again, for somebody working in the industry, when I hear that I'm just like, "I shut off." I have no interest in hearing anything else you have to say because again, the algorithm is not predatory. It's not going after you. It is true that your content may not be very interesting to your audience anymore.

    They may not be engaging with it and that not engaging with it compounds itself. That's the difficulty with poor engagement is that it trends downward. The worse your engagement gets, the worse your reach gets because the algorithm isn't serving that content to your followers and it just keeps sliding down and down and down. Then it's really hard to correct that path because Instagram is no longer serving your content to your audience, so it's difficult to bring them back in and get them to engage.

    Now, I think even if you have bad engagement and I will actually answer the question eventually. Even if you have poor engagement, I think what I would probably do is I would focus not on just doing the same thing over and over again, but trying to get a big winner. I usually get four, 350 to 600 likes on a photo, let's say. I don't have very good engagement. Sometimes I'll get 1,000 to 1,200.

    I would probably focus on, and when I get that, my reach is usually-- My average reach is let's say 6,000. I have 24,000 followers. My average reach is around 6,000. When I do the 1,000, 1,200, 1,500 likes, I do like between 10 and 13,000 in reach. In that instance when I have these photos that really take off, my reach doubles. In the short term, I would focus on those big winners and I wouldn't focus as much honestly on consistency or things like that.

    I would just step back and say, "How can I get a big winner? If I get two or three of those in a row, do I start to retrain the algorithm? A bunch of people have now liked these posts. Is my stuff showing up more?" I think you need to figure out a way to break out of that thing that is holding you back. Again, there is this frustration that is like, "Yes, the content that I usually posted and would get all this engagement, isn't getting the engagement anymore."

    What frustrates me is that influencers' reaction to that is to just post more of that content that isn't getting good engagement. Listen to the performance, try and find those winners to try and claw yourself out of that hole because that hole just gets deeper and deeper and deeper if your engagement is sliding. That's that. I would try and get ahead of it. If I had 100K and I had poor engagement and I was reaching out to a brand, I would discount my rates because my engagement wasn't as good.

    I think I would discount my rates by how much I thought my engagement was down, because engagement does follow reach. Smart marketers now, people that know what they are doing, if your engagement is under a percentage point, let's say, and they know it's half as what it should be. They also know that unless Instagram is working much different for you than most people, that you're reaching half as many people as the people at your similar following level.

    In what world would I pay you the same that I'm going to pay someone else knowing that if I work with that another person with better engagement and thus better reach, that my money is going to go twice as far? Just think about it yourself. If you were going to a restaurant and there were two cheeseburgers. One of them costs $15 and one of them cost $30 and they were the same exact cheeseburger, which one would you get?

    Of course, you would get the $15 one every time. If your engagement is bad and your reach is bad and you're not adjusting your pricing, that is what it looks like. It looks like you're walking and trying to sell me a $30 cheeseburger when I see the cheeseburger on the menu is $15. It's never going to work for you.

    I think you'd have to discount your rates and you have to get ahead of that and say totally, "Just want you to know, I've been struggling a little bit with engagement. I'm doing a bunch of things right now. It seems to be turning it around but in the short term, I'm going to give you a discount because I know I'm not reaching as many people as I should be right now."

    That's a very honest conversation. It's a difficult one to have but I think that if you're not getting work because of your engagement, you have to meet it head-on. I think I've said before to go back and watch Eight mile, that last rap battle scene with Eminem where he he says every insult that the guy's about to say about him, and then the guy doesn't have anything to say all. It's like, "Do that," but just for pitching yourself as an influencer.

    If there's anything that you feel I could get them to say no, then just address it, because when you address it, you get to craft the narrative. It's so frustrating to us. We just heard from a client, we really wanted to work with that we lost a deal. It's $180,000 deal. That's sucks for us. The brand told us why we lost it. It was frustrating because they just misunderstood our offering.

    The reason they said that they weren't going to work with us was absolutely not a valid reason not to work with us. They never mentioned it. In that case, our inability to frame what they saw as a weakness lost us the deal. If you don't talk about your bad engagement, they're going to make up their own story about it, which is probably a lot worse than the truth of it. It behooves you to get ahead of it
    Episode #156
    - Influencer engagement rate, differences, relevance in your industry
  • One, I do think that and I've talked about it before that captions have gotten really lazy. I think that influencers have gotten really good at storytelling through imagery and really, really bad about storytelling through their captions.

    If you're working on a sponsored post from a brand and it is a product that you normally wouldn't talk about, so let's say you're a beauty influencer and you're going to talk about a credit card or you're a fashion influencer and you're going to talk about beauty for the first time, I think your audience expects you to explain why the fuck you're talking to them about this.

    I think you have to give them context and help them understand why it is you're talking to them about this, you have to tell a story so that you can humanize it and get an emotional connection because especially when you talk about something that is outside of the normal sphere of things that you talk about, your influence doesn't follow you to that thing.

    If I trust you to tell me what foundation to wear, I don't trust you to tell me what credit card I should be using. I don't necessarily trust you to tell me what restaurant I should go to in LA, and I don't necessarily trust you to tell me what deodorant you wear.
    It doesn't mean that I can't trust you on those things, I definitely can, I think you have to work harder, and I think you have to tell a story about why this is important to you.

    That is one thing of just thinking about is this something I'd normally talk about? If not, make sure you're weaving it into a bigger story. For a lot of influencers, the story is just that they really love the product, and that's totally fine. I love my deodorant. I take Adderall because I'm all over the fucking place and I'm one of those people that Adderall makes me sweat randomly sometimes, not every day I take it, but sometimes, and so I use Dri, what's it called? It's like D-R-I something.

    It's this over-the-counter but prescription strength deodorant. I fucking love this stuff. I would tell somebody that if you take Adderall and it makes you sweat, use this stuff. I've tried 10 deodorants, this one works really well. That's an authentic real story, but I need to give the context and say that, "I take Adderall, it made me sweat. I searched for a deodorant that worked and couldn't find any until this one." Without that story, I'm just a dude who usually talks about cycling, and influencers, and takes pictures of New York, and all of a sudden, I'm saying, "Use this deodorant," and you're like, "What the fuck are you talking about?

    Why should I pay attention to that?" You need to tell a story in that case, but also, sometimes the story can just be like, "I love this thing." I think what a lot of influencers miss out on is if that's your story, if you're working and partnering with a brand and your story is that you love that product, and as a follower, I only see that product two or three times, then instantly I'm like, "You're a liar. I don't believe you" because if you really love something, then you talk about it all the time or at least you see it all the time. We'll put up a little graphic here of how I think storytelling could be taken care of better with influencers' posts.

    Basically, what I'm talking about is in post one, you introduce the partnership, say why you're doing it, tell a story, create some context. If it is something like a skin care, if it's something that you're testing out and you know you're going to use for a while, setting that up and saying, "I'm super excited to partner and I've always wanted to try this," whatever it might be, and then you want to, over the next two or three weeks or whatever, however long the campaign is, in your stories, you want to pretty consistently mention it or at least have it shown.

    This is something that Erica Fox from Retro Flame does really well is that she will, before a sponsored post, in her stories, you'll start to see a product show up, and she doesn't tag it or anything, so then when she does the post, she'll be like, "Hey, I don't know if you all have noticed in my stories that I've been using this thing. I'm super excited to partner with them," but then throughout the time the campaign is happening, you just see it fairly often. Again, not always tagged, sometimes tagged, it starts to legitimize and lend authenticity to that story that she really likes this product.

    She actually loves it, she is using it and if she's not tagging the brand, I'm also feeling like she's using it and not being paid in that post. She's not even tagging the brand, so the brand is not even going to see that. She's just doing it because she likes it. For me, it lends so much authenticity to things that she's doing, and then you follow it up at the end with another post that closes things out for the time being. Again, if it is something where you're like, "I've used this for the last two weeks, it's been amazing".

    If you're me and it's deodorant, let's say, and you're like, "I've never used this" and it's like, "I used this for the last two weeks, it was incredible. Absolutely the best thing I've ever used, blah, blah blah. It cut down on my Adderall sweats," whatever. How we started talking about the Adderall sweats in the show, I don't know, but it's an unscripted show and sometimes we go off the rails.

    Even if you are not being paid to do that, even if you're not being paid to consistently cover and talk about the brand in between the two posts that you're going to do or even if you're not paid for a second post, I think for the longevity of your accounts as an influencer, I do think you need to think about covering and talking about the brand more. If the story you're telling is, "I love this product, it's really, really great" because I don't think you can tell that story and only have the product shot once or twice and think that you're fooling your audience.

    They know what you're doing which is either you're just being lazy with your writing and you don't have anything else to say about the product so you're saying, "I love it" and/or then I think you don't actually love the product, you're just being paid for it. Stories can help you avoid that. There are other things to say about a product other than, "I love it," and you can tell those things in an authentic way that people believe, but just take some time and be really, again, be explicit about it before you do a post. Maybe write down a couple of concepts and send it to the brand and say, "Here's three concepts I was thinking about, which one do you prefer?"

    That stuff doesn't happen much with influencers and I promise you if you do it, you're going to look great, they're going to keep coming back for you, they're going to keep wanting to work with you, and you will say, " James was right," and I am.
    Episode #155
    - The Importance of Stories and Storytelling
  • As an influencer, you have stories that you tell and the story that you tell. Those are two different things. Let me explain how that works. The stories you tell is every day, what are you doing that day, where do you like to eat, what do you like to wear, what are you thinking about, what do you care about, what are you laughing about, what are you watching, whatever. The story you tell is what is your, again, this is kind of an icky word and people don't talk about personal branding as much as they used to, but what is your brand and what is the story that that brand is telling?

    It's not something that you have to be explicit about to your audience, but I do think that if you haven't gone through this process recently as an influencer, I would do it. I would sit with a notebook and I would write down, what do you think the story you're telling is? How do you think your audience would perceive what makes you interesting or special or different or entertaining or educational? What is that story? Is it the story of a young mother who is also working and living in New York City? Is it the story of a photographer who is going around the world, shooting all these incredible people and all these incredible places and it's this escapism thing?

    Is it like our good friend Jamie, her story of essentially a woman who has moved to Provence in the 1860s, and wears lace, and takes photos of herself all day, and just lives this incredible fairytale life full of castles, and pressed flowers, and fresh baguettes? If you think about the influencers that you really connect with-- Let me just step back. If you're saying, "I don't want to do that and I don't think that's important," I would think about your three favorite influencers and then do that for them, write down what their story is. I bet in two or three sentences, very quickly, you can tell me exactly what they're all about, what their thing is, and summarize that really quickly.

    If you can't do that for yourself, it's because I think you're not being explicit enough about tailoring that story and committing yourself to it because especially now that the space has gotten more and more crowded, I think it is that much more important as an influencer to have a very clear idea about what you do and do not do and be very explicit about the story you're telling. Again, when I say you need to be explicit, you need to understand the story you're telling, your audience shouldn't feel like they're getting a story told to them, it should just feel natural. Every post you do should totally make sense and it should fit into that larger story, but they should never think that you're telling them a story.

    We touched on this a little bit last week of why I think that viral proposal went off the rails was because people figured out that they were being told a story, and then they felt really stupid, and they felt taken advantage of, and they lashed out. People were totally complicit and they were totally on board when they thought this was a journey that they were all going on together, and this was happening in real-time, and it felt really exciting. The second they realized that it was a manufactured story that was being told to them, they turned on it like that.

    I think that's a very interesting thing to think about, so be explicit about it, but don't let your audience know that you're just telling them a story. Look, I'm not saying you have to make up some new brand or story for yourself. Ideally, you're living this interesting life that people are connecting with. I think it is about discipline and putting up guardrails and saying, "This is who I am and this is what I talk about" so that people can come to know what to expect from you. If they can know what to expect from you and you deliver on that, then that's how you build trust, and love, and emotional connection, and all of those things.
    Episode #155
    - The Importance of Stories and Storytelling
  • That is a valid question to ask. It's something that has stuck with me that's just like an old truism that facts don't convince people, stories do. People do not change their mind when presented with the facts, you need only look at the political parties in the US and what's happening right now in American politics to understand that facts are meaningless in changing someone's mind, and the only thing that matters is a good story. That has been true throughout all of human history, stories absolutely have shaped this entire world be it from religious stories and religious texts and just how important those are.

    Stories about a country's place in the world, a story that they may be told themselves. If we look at the great battle, the great civil rights and civil liberties battles of the last a hundred years, the biggest steps have been taken when stories were being told that could not be ignored. I think first if you can understand how important a story is in changing someone's mind and if changing someone's mind is influencing them in a lot of ways, then it is essential for you, as an influencer, to know how to use storytelling as a tool to be able to burrow your message into the brains of your audience. That is why stories are so important, but why is it that they work so well?

    I think three core things to remember to think about when you think about stories is one, they provide context. If you are talking about something without context, your audience gets confused. Let's just talk about, in this case, let's talk about a sponsored post, and you're doing a post for a brand, the story that you tell about how you came into contact with the brand, the way you found out about it, your experience in using it, that story gives your audience context of what is this, and essentially, what is it doing for me, and when do I use it? What that story can do when it gives context is tell you who is it for, when do I use it, what does it do?

    Those three things are really important. Sure, you could rattle those off in just a list and say, "Here's what it does, here's who it's for, and here's when you use it," but that isn't super compelling, so the story can tell all of those things that you need to communicate when you're telling a new idea, but can do it in a way that's entertaining and someone doesn't necessarily know that they're being informed of something. They don't feel like they're being preached at or lectured to, but they're just listening to a story but all the while they're getting those three points.

    The next is that they humanize the message. Increasingly, as influencers, we're doing more brand messaging. We need those messages and we need your posts to feel human. We need your audience to be able to put a face to it and understand the human side of what this thing is and why you should care. The best posts about travel, the best travel influencers in my mind aren't the people who take these ridiculous, amazing landscape photos, it's the people that humanize those places, that tells stories that show me a side of that country, that city, that neighborhood that I couldn't get from a landscape photo. It's the human side of the message that really pulls us in.

    One of my favorite Instagram followers that I've talked about is this woman Sophie Roberts. We'll have Tim put up a link to her account, but she is a writer for Condé Nast Traveler. She goes into these ridiculous places and she just pulls out these human stories. She could zoom out and take this amazing landscape. She spends a lot of time in Siberia, she could have these amazing photos of that, but instead, it's a photo of somebody sitting in their hut in the Siberian tundra feeding them a lamb stew and she's talking about that. For me, that humanization, that makes the story real and it makes it so much more impactful and so much more memorable.

    That's what you want, you want your stories to be remembered and retold. To do that, you need to humanize it in a way that goes into the last point, which is they create an emotional connection. Your audience wants to connect to you, they want to feel like they are your friend, they want to feel like they know you, and to do that, you have to humanize yourself and open yourself up to creating that connection with the audience, and stories help your audience get to know you, they provide context about you, and they humanize the life that you're living and allow for that emotional connection.

    Those are the three buckets, I think, of why storytelling is so important, why I think without it, it would be very, very difficult to create compelling content on the Internet.
    Episode #155
    - The Importance of Stories and Storytelling
  • I mean look, Instagram would put ads on your fucking forehead if they could. They're going to put ads everywhere. I'm surprised they didn't put ads in Explore a long time ago. I personally don't use Explore that much. I think, and talking to most influencers, Explore is not as valuable as it used to be, certainly. It used to be like if you get on that Explore page you gain thousands of followers, now it seems like you can get a lot of reach and you can get a bunch of engagement but that engagement, that reach isn't necessarily converting to a following like it used to. It'll get harder to get onto the explore page but it gets harder every day to get on the Explore page.

    I think if anything, it's another example of why as an influencer you need to diversify your following, you need to diversify your revenue streams. Again, like to use a startup term, no viable business can have a single point of failure, meaning if one thing changes and you don't have a business is buff. If your single point of failure is that 100% of your revenue comes from Instagram and it's the only place that you engage with your audience and then if you also understand that it is literally impossible for Instagram to, for the next 10 or 15 years maintain its position in the marketplace and maintain its position and like pop culture and certainly its position in the marketing world, then if you don't diversify so that Instagram isn't your single point of failure, then you have no chance for a long-term career.

    I have a 130,000 followers on Tumblr does that matter? No. It doesn't mean fucking thing because nobody goes on Tumblr. I have 130,000 followers who don't know their passwords to Tumblr anymore. What does that do for me? It does nothing. I think with Instagram if like some of the top 1% big celebrities, influencers things like that and then like regular people get sick of it which definitely can happen if we continue just throwing ads in their face constantly, I think it would only take you know 5% or 10% of the platform abandoning the platform for it's a very quickly rolled downhill.

    If you don't think that is going to happen one day, you are completely delusional and again, think about your points of failure and make sure that something we think about internally at for all the time, what does it look like if Instagram disappears. How do we hedge our bets and our business against a single point of failure because you can't live your entire life in the hands of the company that you can't trust and you can't trust any corporation.
    Episode #154
    - Viral Instagram proposal, pitching to brands, ads on explore tab
  • We answer this question every six months or so and so for y'all who haven't gone back to episode 70 or whatever I'll answer it again. Short answer, absolutely. One, you should just get better at pitching yourself. You can't in life, you can't just sit back and wait for things to come to you. I mean that's, I don't even think Rihanna's doing that, right. We're not Rihanna, but I'm sure she is proactive and going after the things we want.

    That's the other thing, if you're an influencer and you have a following, you have an incredible opportunity to use that following to do things that if you didn't have that following would be impossible. To work with your dream brands, to do your dream collaborations, to help people that don't have the voice that you have. To shed light on causes and charities or whatever it is that you're passionate about, you have the opportunity to do that with a following and if you're not doing those things you're not taking an active role in shaping what your professional life looks like, then you're just a passenger. You're just like a tourist in your own life which is pretty fucking boring.

    I couldn't fathom having a following and not proactively pitching brands, because to me it shows a lack of creativity. If you're creative and you want to create things, then you've got all these ideas and if you're an influencer you probably love brands so you should be thinking, "I love this brand, I have an idea for them." I think that what you'll find is by putting stuff out there and by Pro-actively pitching one, it just gets that muscle tongue of learning how to pitch and learning how to talk to brands and your ability to sell something in your life, that is absolutely fundamental to success in any role.

    Whether you are internal and you're working at a brand and you're doing marketing or you're an influencer or you're stay-at-home mom, your ability to sell is absolutely essential to success, right. Because convincing someone to do something, whether it be to listen to your suggestion and what the marketing plan should be or work with you on a campaign or get your kid to go to bed on time. all that is sales, right. You have to practice it and it is easier obviously to sell when people come to you and that's the comfortable thing. You don't put yourself out there because someone's already coming to you and they say I want you and then all you have to do is negotiate a price. That's not selling, that's negotiating.

    Going out and proactively saying there is something I want to put into the world, there's a brand I want to work with. There's something that I want to do, reaching out to that brand, getting them onboard, seeing it through, I mean that's should be the kind of work that you're going after. Not sitting around waiting for someone to pay you.

    This, whatever y'all are experiencing right now if you're an influencer and you've got a following, I remember back when I had a Tumblr following and I called my mom and I was like, I felt bad because I had a full-time job and I kept taking time off to go on these trips and duck out for these experiences and I called my mom and I was saying I was worried about my long-term career and should I be turning more of this stuff down. She was like- you know moms are always, they always know what's up. She was just like, "This won't last forever and you should absolutely say yes to everything right now because there is there will be a point in your life, you're either not getting these opportunities or you're not able to take them anymore."

    As an influencer, I think you have to understand that if brands are reaching out and everything's working and you're walking around and you're thinking you're hot shit, that will not be constant. Nobody is just successful for their entire life. Even the most successful people in the world, look at Steve Jobs. If you read his biography, a lot of his life was shit and a lot of it was failures. When things are going well, you have to capitalize on that because it's not gonna be there forever.

    If there's a brand you've always wanted to work with or a project you've always wanted to do and you're just waiting for that brand to reach out to you so that you can do it, I think what you'll find is you will wait for your entire life and then the moment will pass and you'll never good to do it. I would say you should absolutely be pitching and I understand that didn't answer the question about what should actually be in there, but the pitch deck what you put together is as important as getting the brands to respond to your email. Get on the phone with them passionately talk about what it is and then they'll ask you for what you need.

    What's it going to cost, all that, it's good to have all that tightened up, but the pitch deck shouldn't be something that the brand can just say yes or no to. It should be something that gets them to get on the phone and then you try and close them on the phone or in person meeting. No deal is ever going to be closed by you probably just sending an email and saying here's what I want to do and them saying yes or no.
    Episode #154
    - Viral Instagram proposal, pitching to brands, ads on explore tab
  • I'm not really here to comment on the actual proposal, and I know there was a lot of outrage over FTC compliance and you know whether or not she should have disclosed the brand partnership she did. I don think that's what people are actually pissed off about. If you look at what they actually got, it was equivalent to like $1000 of value. They really didn't get that much-sponsored content. I think what people were pissed about was they felt like idiots. I think people don't like to feel like they're a fool and they got played and I think right when that broke that it was happening and the whole Internet was looking at it and watching.

    They were super invested and they felt they were watching something that felt interesting or funny or sweet or whatever. Then when I saw the deck, they realized they were part of potentially part of a big ploy, they got tricked. Nobody likes getting pranks pulled on them, nobody likes being made a fool of. I think that was where some of the backlash was it's like when you retweet or post a photo that ends up being fake and people are like, "That's a fake photo," and then you feel just stupid because you feel you should have known better but you got caught up in something.

    I feel that too. I saw it and I was like, "Oh my gosh." I put it in our slack channels that you guys watching this is crazy proposal wedding thing happening in real time on Instastories. Then I saw the deck 10 hours later and was like, "Yes I kind of feel like an ass hole now." I think what is interesting though and what I think about more and more on the Internet when this kind of stuff happens is that, when the mob turns on you, it gets really, really ugly. Do I think the whole thing was a little uncomfortable? Yes. I think in the end, especially that deck leaking the whole thing, felt a little like disingenuous.

    Do I think that they deserved the amount of shit that they got? Absolutely not. I think that what scares me and what should scare anyone who puts things on the Internet, is that like When the mob switches over and decides you suck, they can just absolutely ruin your life for no good reason. I've seen this happen a few times and I participated in it as well like tweeting that someone's terrible or whatever, just piling on to something. It feels good and it feels you're watching this car crash, right. You're, literally the Internet is ruining somebody's life in real time and as a human that is something that you're drawn to and is a probably a flaw in our makeup as humans.

    I think about what would it be like if it was me on that, on the other end of the mob, and regardless if she knew or if she didn't. She looked miserable when she got married and I'm sure the whole thing was ruined for her and fucking sucked. If that was the Internet's goal, congratulations and look you can be like, hey, they did it. They put their thing out there and they are if you're going to have a wedding on Instastories in real time, you open yourself up to that and probably why weddings shouldn't have pitch decks and they shouldn't be that public. Because if any day should be private and be about you and someone else, I think would probably be your wedding day.

    Again, I can see a world in which they brought this on themselves by making it so public, but as a collective, as the Internet, do we feel good about that? Do we feel good that everyone shit all over them for three days and was hand-wringing? Really, it felt people were really happy when they found out there was a pitch deck because it was like, "Fuck them, they suck. These good-looking successful people, I knew they sucked." You saw she removed Goop from her profile, from her bio, Goop's PR had to put out a statement, say that they were launching an internal investigation about the way that she went down doing this wedding.

    What if she didn't know and now her husband just planned this. This sucks and everyone is so stoked to be like, these people are terrible. We don't know them and so I am trying to be a better person and be a better steward on the Internet. When I see this kind of mob things happening, I try and generally just stay out of it, because one day the mob will come for me, I'm sure. God knows the amount of shit I've said on this show. I'm sure somebody will dig it up one day and I'm going to be made to look some big asshole. I hope on that day y'all come to my defense and don't pile on.

    Because these are people's lives. Whether or not they suck and they're shitty people, I don't know. I don't know these people but I don't think someone deserves to have their lives ruined over the Internet because they decided to have a fucking wedding on Instagram. I don't think that is really an appropriate response. That is probably all I'm going to say about that wedding.
    Episode #154
    - Viral Instagram proposal, pitching to brands, ads on explore tab
  • The question was like, she was saying that she can tell, especially in stories, when things are resonating because she'll get a lot of DMs about it and she can tell when things aren't resonating because she doesn't get any DMs. I will say that DMs and how many messages influencers receive off their stories is a metric that we track in our campaigns and for the same reason, if there's a lot of DMs, we think that's a super highly engaged post. People are asking questions or commenting on it. That's something we definitely pay attention to. You should be looking at your DMs as a metric to understand how engaged your audience is in your Insta stories specifically.

    Now, should you answer them? I think the concern is obviously, as you grow, it gets really, really difficult to answer them. It's a conversation we were having with Grace. She said she struggled-- She wanted to answer all of her DMs. It was already a lot with 100,000 followers and sometimes she had to take breaks. Personally, I don't really understand influencers, especially bigger influencers who still feel like they need to be answering all of their DMs.

    If your DMs are like the info@four.com email address, nobody would expect the CEO of a company to be answering the general info at address. If you train people effectively to speak in your voice, if you teach them the responses that you would give and if you give them a way to escalate things that they feel do need to be personally answered by you, then I don't understand why you would feel the need to answer all of your DMs. The experience for your audience is going to be exactly the same.

    They're going to have a question. That question is going to be answered. I think that the audience doesn't get a huge amount of benefit from you personally answering the DMs or more often than not, not answering them because you're too busy, and you end up feeling a lot of guilt and stress that you should be answering these DMs and you're not. For me, if this was my business and my job, I would make it a point to answer every DM that was a question. When that felt like it was not worth my time, I would have somebody help me do that and make sure that you're still involved in it, that you're seeing reports on the kinds of questions that are being answered. Again, if there's anything that is a brand or something that you should be paying attention to or a question that the person who's helping you doesn't know that they're escalating that to you, but I wouldn't feel the pressure to answer every DM on your own. It's not scalable, it's impossible, so why do it.

    I do think if you had people helping you, it is potentially a way to really make that audience feel connected to you and feel like you really do care and you're putting in the effort. I do think it is a way to build a deeper relationship with that audience. If you're going to have someone else answer your DMs, how do you balance that? I think you could tell your audience. You could say, "Hey, I have someone that helps out with the DMs." Most of the DMs I assume are questions about the product and about, "I'm looking for this, I'm looking for that, who made that dress? Who makes those shoes?"

    It does not matter who answers that. I don't see a situation where you run into a follower and they're like, "Oh, my God, we've been like having a DM conversation for years." You're like, "What? I don't answer my DMs." "What?" Even if someone is helping you out with DMs, it's not like you don't have the phone and that you're not on top of this stuff. I've seen also back in the glory days when we had a sane president who didn't take to his own Twitter account that much. I think when he had a tweet, he would put Barack at the end to let you know that he actually wrote it, not somebody from his staff. I do that sometimes on the Four account. If I'm going through one night and I'm answering DMs, I'll put JN or James just to be like, "Hey, this is me who's talking."

    You could do that. The ones you personally answer, you could say that. Again, I think that if the audience's goal is to get an answer, then it's enough to get an answer, and if you think of what you're doing as a business, then that business needs to scale. Nobody could expect that you'd be answering all those DMs. It's just not a good use of your time. I really believe that, for the audience, it's a much better experience to know that I can send you a message and within a couple of hours get an actual answer rather than never get an answer.

    You can see how it feels shitty to send someone a message, especially a thoughtful one with a question and then just not get it answered. The problem is Instagram, it's not like a normal email inbox, obviously, it's difficult to manage a huge volume of messages whereas, again, in an email you can have filters, you can sit on the plane for two hours and bang out 400 emails really easily. There are ways to get through big volumes of messages on emails but there's really not on Instagram.

    I think it's just on you to train that person effectively. You write the responses. Again, if that person is working for you, they should know your tone of voice, how you talk about things. Again, this is why brands have brand guidelines. The person who is tweeting for a brand, they're speaking in that brand's voice. They had to be trained to know what is that voice. Do they use exclamation points or not? Do they sign off with an XO or do they not? Do they use emojis or not? This is all goes into what a brand is. It would be pretty easy to train someone to answer questions the way you do and then, again, just make sure they have a way to escalate things, and say, "Hey, if you get a chance today, there's five messages in your DM inbox that I feel like would be worth you answering."

    I understand there's probably some complexities there because someone else is in your account, which I think makes people nervous rightly so. They're speaking on your behalf, which can make you nervous. If you would be nervous about that, I would argue that maybe that employee isn't the right person for you. Sometimes when there are big complicated things to do, we distract ourselves with small simple things to do. While you should be out emailing brands and pitching them a new project, you might say, "Well, I've got two hours of DMS to answer. I'll do that instead because that's easy and I don't get rejected. That's something I know how to do."

    In running any business you constantly have to be growing out of the things that you're doing and growing into new things and then finding capable people to take over the things that you left behind. I read that John D. Rockefeller book Titan, which if you ever want to read a 900-page book on John D. Rockefeller, it was excellent. At Standard Oil, they would say, "The day you got hired you should be trying to get out of that job as soon as humanly possible and get the next job and have someone else take your job." It was just constantly about growth and constantly about figuring out a way to operate at a higher level and have someone else do those other things. I wouldn't get caught up too much in the minutia of answering 200 DMs a day. It's not worth your time.
    Episode #152
    - Responding to all DMs, Creator profile switch, Bilingual content
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